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Sub-marine Base_la Base Sommergibili Di Bordeaux


ilgattopardo

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Sono studente in Storia nella città di Bordeaux. Il mio oggetto di studio riguarda "la basa di sommergibili ed l'organizzazione della BETASOM dalle 1941 alle fine della guerra" . Cosi cerco documenti diversi a proposto de questo oggetto

I'm student in History in Bordeaux. I'm preparing a research master on "the submarine base from 1941 to..." . Thus, I'm looking to documents about:

>the construction of the Sub-Marine Base,
>the “bassins à flots” 's Allies air raids,
>any illustrations which represents Italian or German U-boats,
>notes which mentions who get involved in the construction,
>notes on the Italian sub-marines soldiers,

Thanking you in advance, I could read you back in Italian,


This is my presentation:
http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?show...entry380428>

1) To answer #Corto Maltese:

As you suggested to me, I asked some books to "Le prêt entre bibliothèques":

[deleted]


+ an other one but I forget which one, I'll tell you if I received it.

So, 1st I'll be waiting these books and then I'll see if, I'll ask you for the attached files;

2) Like I wrote to @Totiano: when my work will be finished {I've 2 years}, I'll send to your association my work [off course if my work isn't too bad...heheh]

I hope to read you back in your languages,

Il Gattopardo,

Edited by ilgattopardo
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Ciao Gattopardo!

mi sono permesso di correggere il titolo (piccole cose, niente di grave)

 

se puoi compra anche "Betasom, la guerra negli oceani" http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=19274 , è un testo fondamentale per conoscere la nascita e gli avvenimenti nella base di Bordeaux.

 

senza contare "Vedetta Atlantica", http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=37136 naturalmente!

 

Aspettiamo le tue domande!

 

PS: dimenticavo: siamo in contatto con alcuni reduci di Betasom, se servono testimonianze dirette

Edited by Totiano
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Hi there and welcome aboard, sorry if I write in English but my written French its way too rusty.

 

Let me get this straight: are you interested in Bordeaux’s submarine base as whole or just in the Italian part?

As you may already know, BetaSom was the Italian Atlantic submarines home and was based in n°1 basin, near the German’s one, the one with the bunker.

Lets have a look at the map, so that we can better figure out the division before getting into the matter:

 

base.jpg

 

So when we talk about Betasom we are talking about the red perimeter while if we talk about Bordeaux submarine base we could either intend the whole base (basins 1 and 2) as well as just the German part, but definitely Betasom cannot be used to name the whole base or the German facility.

 

the construction of the Sub-Marine Base

 

Here you’re talking about the German part I suppose, being the one with a concrete bunker, is it?

In such a case, the bunker construction began on mid 1941 in n° 2 basin and was composed of 11 pens, it was purpose built and intended to shield Germans u-boot only.

The capacity was 14 submarines, pens 1 to 4 were 105m long and 20m wide and were capable of accommodating two subs each, while pens 5 to 8 were 105m long and 14m wide intended for just one unit. All the mentioned were of the wet type, so without a dry docking capability.

Pens 9 to 11 were 95m long and 11m wide, designed for one unit each but dry dock capable.

The roof was covered with a bomb protection layer made up of reinforced concrete sleepers (the so called ‘Fangrost’) leaned on supports that create a cavity gap, in which the bomb its supposed to dissipate her energy; as far as I know there were no anti aircraft positions on the roof.

The complex have an annex facility on the rear built to accommodate workshops, warehouses, equipment, spares, generators and so on.

The facility was fitted with a rails system created to move loads and weapons from the stores to the pens.

There were plans to build a reinforced concrete lock entrance in order to avoid a gate block such as the one suffered at St. Nazaire, but the construction was never completed, the ruins of that structure been wiped out after the war.

If you are interested in deeper information about the German bunker there are several books that should suit your needs.

 

the “bassins à flots” 's Allies air raids

 

Bordeaux, as well as the others ‘French’ submarine bases (except Brest), has been quite lucky when talking about air raids.

From 1940 to mid 1944 it suffered seven bombing, of which only the last two in August 1944 did very little damages. The base was occupied by the French forces on August 26, it was almost intact as today’s condition prove.

 

any illustrations which represents Italian or German U-boats

 

This website itself its full of stunning pictures, of both Italian and German submarines, begin by having a look at the Italian submarines forum section as well at the Italian Navy website.

 

http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=30428

http://www.marina.difesa.it/storiacultura/...ne/betasom.aspx

 

notes which mentions who get involved in the construction

 

The construction was carried out by the Organisation Todt-Einsatzgruppe West, a detachment of the main OT (leaded by Fritz Todt) in charge of the occupied territories facilities building.

The OTW was based in Paris and was runned by Karl Weisthe; the territory under his control was divided into command areas(oberbauleitung) in charge of the respective constructions.

The labour force was composed of both Germans and foreign workers, the second kind were often almost slaves.

Looks like a great piece of the labour force that built Bordeaux’s complex was Spanish, as a recently made memorial would evidence.

 

http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?show...ndiera+spagnola

 

notes on the Italian sub-marines soldiers

 

Thats a long chat, what are you looking for?

The community its able to provide you almost everything about this matter, starting from Commander’s logs to everyday life in the base, passing through living veterans memories.

 

As for the books, if you’re interested in collecting info about Betasom I would strongly advice you to buy at least ‘Vedetta Atlantica’, in which you may find, besides the rare collection of the paper itself, a great overview of the Italians facilities that used to spin around the submarine base.

Of course also Mattesini’s book its a must, but I belive that would be less digestible.

Also, get in touch with Lazer_One, he will provide you tips and shortcuts for some sightseeing around your city.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ciao tutti;

 

 

Thanks all for your messages.

Thanks for your informations @Lefa;) Just if you don't mine I'm gonna add some infos; { I'm not gonna write a long text here, because I already spending my time sending emails, letters, and writing notes from documents; that's why I've been long to find out how to answer ya :s10: }

 

1)

Interesting and very important to know, I just noticed;)

 

2)

There is quite a lot of articles about that, and fortunately for me in French.

 

3)

I don't agree with all, the bombs destructed all the Bassin n°1, the base was not the target, even the top of the base suffered a little.

What is true is that the air raids were very localised in Bordeaux; Brest indeed, and Lorient, Saint-Nazaire etc... suffered more. St-Naz, for instance has been "erased" from 85%.

Anyway, neighbours and people whom lived in Bacalan, still remember these air raids.

 

4)

Thanks a lot for the link

 

5)

-not only Spanish; and they were a lot of people from different parts of Europe, such as French also. Some of them where prisoners and others just decided to took the job.

I've also quite a lot of things to say about that building; so I'm gonna talk on my next memory. As for me the moment is already here: it's the submarine base, it was useless to build that kind of memorial.

 

>" [RAPIDEMENT l'IDEE en FR] Je pense que le but n'est pas de construire ou d'apposer son drapeau. Mais plutôt de faire en sorte, tous ensemble, que ce lieux devienne ou soit complété par un écomusée et des visites guidées, qui retraceraient l'Histoire de cette Base. Néanmoins, cette sculpture permet de se souvenir d'une partie de l'Histoire de la Base, qui semble actuellement complètement oubliée par la municipalité; ou du moins pas mis en valeur". .< I won't gonna add more thing about that, I'll see how to explain that on my work. That's why I'm also thinking on the question of "the memory and the history".

 

6)

I'm still waiting for the books I asked to "Le SUDOC";)

 

By the way, will Vedetta Atlantica be translate into Eng or French?

 

>>>>>Also, Yes I'm interested in the testimonies from the soldiers, like @Totiano proposed. If some are still alive, do not hesitate to ask me for my contact, I could call everybody in ITALIA on an house phone.

 

7) Yes I'm now in touch with @Lazer_one, but for the moment, as I'm living in Brdx I've no specific question to ask. Off course, I won't hesitate, If one is on my mind.

 

@Simone77: thanks; In fact, I'm still studding her in Brdx, because I can't (for the moment) afford a trip to Italia, but one day (I don't know when) I'll be going. By the way, I've to thanks the USMM, for his phone welcoming and his answer.

 

A presto, può leggere l'Italiano;)

 

Il Gattopardo {di Lampedusa}

Edited by ilgattopardo
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Fafa welcome on the forum man; As you can noticed, there is no more answers now, but welcome anyway.

 

1st you have to introduce yourself here: >http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showforum=46< {it's not so difficult for you as a Linux user}

 

And to give ya an answer: yeah I've chosen that nickname because of the book we studied in class.

 

Il Gattopardo, sperando che avro delle risposte al mio ultimo messaggio, ed a questa frase in particolare:

Inviato il Dec 5 2011, 08:21 PM , Yes I'm interested in the testimonies from the soldiers, like @Totiano proposed"
"

 

A presto tutti;

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  • 2 weeks later...
It has been shot in Saint-Nazaire in September 2011.

 

 

OK! I was there in July. I visited Saint Nazaire, Lorient and Brest. And later Bordeaux in September.

Do you plan to visit La Pallice? Please post pictures.

Could you take some specific shot in Bordeaux?

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Do you plan to visit La Pallice? Please post pictures.

Could you take some specific shot in Bordeaux?

 

1.1 Forse andro a vedere La Pallice;) durante le vacanze di Julio o Augusto.

 

1.2 I've some pictures taken from the U-boat Base in Brdx, so yes I'll post some after the next exams.

 

Si vuole leggere la mia presentazione sul blog forze lei potrebbe vedere perché la Base di St-Naz mi interessa per fare la comparazione con quella di Brdx.

 

Besides, I cannot find any more the presentation I wrote on the forum. Is the presentation has been deleted?

 

 

I wish you all an Happy New year :s03: ed a presto

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------MI PRESENTAZIONE

Edited by ilgattopardo
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Besides, I cannot find any more the presentation I wrote on the forum. Is the presentation has been deleted?

 

In order to maintain few but interesting post, everything is on "presentazione e benvenuto" is deleted every month.

 

Happy new year!

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1.1 Forse andro a vedere La Pallice;) durante le vacanze di Julio o Augusto.

 

1.2 I've some pictures taken from the U-boat Base in Brdx, so yes I'll post some after the next exams.

 

Si vuole leggere la mia presentazione sul blog forze lei potrebbe vedere perché la Base di St-Naz mi interessa per fare la comparazione con quella di Brdx.

 

Besides, I cannot find any more the presentation I wrote on the forum. Is the presentation has been deleted?

 

 

I wish you all an Happy New year :s03: ed a presto

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------MI PRESENTAZIONE

Definetely StNazaire is actually the best re-cycling of the bunker structure. It is possible to go inside, on top, and it is simply fantastic the Transatlantic musem.

Bordeaux should exploit the bunker and all the surronding area which actually looks very bad.

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In order to maintain few but interesting post, everything is on "presentazione e benvenuto" is deleted every month.

Ok va bene;)

Besides, I did received emails on the forum inbox (I did answered these too from my personal email box, I hope that I wrote back to the good ones) and I don't know how to reply directly on the forum inbox. The most simple way to contact me, is directly on my personal email adress, the one who have mine can share it to the others members whom want to contact me.

Definetely StNazaire is actually the best re-cycling of the bunker structure.

Yes maybe -;) I have to discover the otherS oneS (I really appreciate St-N) to confirm that statement; I'll write about St-Naz soon, on the research (off course) and on my blog.

Today I just received from "le prêt entre bibliothèque": [deleted]

C ya soon,[/font] Edited by ilgattopardo
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http://www.libreriadelmare.it/e-commerce.h...category_id=212

 

http://www.libreriamilitare.com/prodotto.p...085&id_cat=

 

[edit]

 

I've forgotten to say that if you would like me to ask by phone for availability of this book at these libraries I can, including shipping prices to Bordeaux and payment methods.

Edited by Lefa
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Lefa,

 

Well, as I just proposed to Lazer, It could more interesting that if one Betasom member will come to Bordeaux this summer or the next university's year (2012-2013) , he could thus bring the book and I'll buy him directly.

 

Best regards,

 

;)

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Hello,

I don't know if Lazer or any other member(s) will be coming to Bordeaux BETASOM soon, but I've to give you that information:

http://wp.me/p23zu1-4m

 

best regards,

Jean-Baptiste

 

Visita ai Bunker di Bordeaux il 19 maggio 2012, sembra interessante! ci sarà una guida Jean-Baptiste?

 

Faranno entrare anche nel bassin-a-flot nr.1 dove era la base italiana?

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Visita ai Bunker di Bordeaux il 19 maggio 2012, sembra interessante! ci sarà una guida Jean-Baptiste?

 

Faranno entrare anche nel bassin-a-flot nr.1 dove era la base italiana?

 

Ciao Totiano,

 

I'm using the English language to answer you, thus I could answer you faster than with the written Italian.

In fact, "la base sous-marine" is a kind of museum, and it's more cultural and artistic than historical. So, tomorrow (like I wrote on my blog, and I'll write it in Italian ASAP too) the team of "la base sous-marine" won't be proposing something historical. Anyway, I'll be going there, in the aim to see a little more the building (and I'll take some pic, you can appreciate some on my dropbox). But don't worry guys, the historical place of BETASOM and the U-Bunker will have to be seen in an historical view; our research, your publications and the forum will be useful for that.

Best regards,

 

PS: If you wanna see some pic, just follow the link: http://wp.me/p23zu1-39

Edited by ilgattopardo
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Ciao a tutti,

 

Non no avuto delle loro informazione da quanto tempo ;)

Riguarda il libro del Signore Mascellani, è davvero una bella sintesi sulla storia de βsom. Per me, è un po' più facile da leggere che il libro de Mattesini, pero le due libri se completano.

 

1)

Nel mese di settembre sono andato a far una visita storica del quartiere de Bacalan, organizzata da un editore (forse sarebbe bene che le faccio presentare quella persona interessato ed interessante) ed i membri partecipanti hanno parlato del “pontile della Garonna”, dové gli som. tedeschi andando a ormeggiarsi. Ecco una citazione del unico libro serioso (dalla mia conoscenza) sulla storia globale ed locale de la βsom in francese: “Le Bassin à flot n°1 de Bacalan étant occupée par la Betasom italienne avec ses submersibles, les sous-marins allemands en escale à Bordeaux viennent s'amarrer à un ponton en bois érigé sur la Garonne”, in Francis SALLABERRY, L'Aquitaine Allemande 1940-1945, J&D editore, Biarritz, 1995 ; (quel libro non si trova più, solo alla biblioteca di Brdx).

Avete delle informazione su questo pontile, (che esita sempre oggi)?

 

2) Potrebbero leggere qui in francese un articolo, sotto la pagina 2, sulla “franco-navale”, anch'io mi piacerebbe di aver qualcun informazioni:

http://bacalanstory.blogs.sudouest.fr/archive/2012/09/06/lire-le-dernier-numero-du-journal-bacalan.html

 

A presto,

 

Spedito dalla βsom ;)

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Durante il periodo 40-43 è forse dopo, nello perimetro della Base era aperto uno spaccio gestito dalla Cooperativa fra Marina ed Operai. In questo spaccio si potevano acquistare francobolli italiani e forse altre cose. Quindi mi piacerebbe sapere per favore, dové era questa Cooperativa? In oltre i francobolli, e forse Vedetta Atlantica, che se poteva comprare in quella?

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Ciao a tutti,

 

Sono sempre ricercando il libro di Mattesini, mi piacerebbe compralo, ma come posso fare?

 

A presto,

 

Questa discussione mi era svuggita... pertanto scusami se "arrivo" tardi.

 

So per certo (fonte sicurissima), che l'Ufficio Storico della Marina si sta adoperando per ripubblicare il libro "Betasom - La guerra negli oceani (1940-1943).

 

Se ancora non sei riuscito a reperirlo, porta pazienza.

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