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Totiano

7 Sub Russi In Mar Nero Entro Il 2017

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l'articolo è di qualche giono fa, ma l'importanza non credo debba essere trascurata. 7 nuovi diesel elettrici in costruzione agli Admiralty Shipyard di S. Pietroburgo andranno ad aggiungersi all'unico Kilo attualmante di stanz ain Mar Nero, evidenzando una rinnovata attenzione per il medio oriente da parte della Russia. vi riposrto l'articolo da Defencetalk al link http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-to-deplo...-by-2017-40323/

 

 

 

 

Russia to Deploy 7 Subs in Black Sea by 2017

 

 

Russia’s Black Sea Fleet will have seven diesel-electric submarines by 2017, the fleet’s commander, Rear Admiral Alexander Fedotenkov, said on Monday.

 

There is only one submarine, the Alrosa, a Kilo class vessel, currently in service with the Black Sea Fleet. The Alrosa joined the Russian Navy in 1990.

 

Russia is planning to add six Varshavyanka class (Project 636.3) submarines to the fleet. All six are in different stages of construction at the Admiralty Shipyard in St. Petersburg.

 

“We will receive the first three subs in 2014, one more – in 2015, and the last two – in 2016 to form a full-size submarine brigade in the Black Sea Fleet,” Fedotenkov said.

 

The vessels, crewed by 52 submariners, have an underwater speed of 20 knots, a cruising range of 400 miles (electric propulsion) with the ability to patrol for 45 days. They are armed with 18 torpedoes and eight surface-to-air missiles.

 

The improved Varshavyanka class submarines feature advanced “stealth” technology, extended combat range and ability to strike land, surface and underwater targets.

 

Fedotenkov also said that the Black Sea Fleet would receive Krivak IV class frigates during the same period.

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Ho sentito qualcosa del genere via radio-giornale, mentre parlavano dell'ordine di riarmo di Putin. Il giornalista si focalizzava sui missili che andrebbero a contrastare lo "scudo spaziale", accennando appena ai 7 nuovi sommergibile.

 

Alla fine parliamo della versione aggiornata dei Kilo, corretto? Saranno nella versione AIP?

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...

Alla fine parliamo della versione aggiornata dei Kilo, corretto? Saranno nella versione AIP?

No, i 636.3 sono una via di mezzo tra i Kilo Improved (877) e i Lada (677): dimensioni maggiori, VLS, sensori potenziati a livello di quelli del Lada, velocità maggiore ma sempre diesel-elettrici.

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No, i 636.3 sono una via di mezzo tra i Kilo Improved (877) e i Lada (677): dimensioni maggiori, VLS, sensori potenziati a livello di quelli del Lada, velocità maggiore ma sempre diesel-elettrici.

Hai ragione, ho preso un bell'abbaglio :s68:

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I 636 sono i 'Kilo imp', è l'aggiornamento del programma 877 locale e 877EKM per l'export, hanno la forma della prua leggermente diversa, sono un poco più lunghi, montano sensori e sistemi migliori, distribuiscono i pesi in maniera differente ma non hanno VLS (6 TLS disposti 2+4).

Questo è il risultato della sconfitta del Lada e probabilmente di tutta la relativa classe export (Amur); davvero strano visto che il progettista di ambedue le classi (Kilo e Amur) è lo stesso.. in Mar Nero mi pare ci sia solo l'Alrosa attualmente..

 

Questo disegno è fatto molto bene, si vede quasi tutto:

 

Project-636-Kilo-class-submarine-2.JPG

Edited by Lefa

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Questo disegno è fatto molto bene, si vede quasi tutto:

Ne hai un altro Matteo? Non se se riguarda solo me, ma non sembra caricarsi.

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Strano, ecco il link diretto: http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/uploads/...submarine-2.JPG

Questo è il Sor Kormilitsyn, padre di 4 generazioni di sottomarini diesel-elettrici sovietici (Foxtrot, Tango, Kilo e Amur), attualmente a capo della divisione sommergibili convenzionali della RUBIN, insegna all'università tecnico marittima di S.Pietroburgo, ho recentemente finito un bel libro scritto da questo figuro.

 

494b84bc46.jpg

 

[edit]

 

Una domanda per gli esperti: chi era a capo dei progetti Toti e Sauro in Italia?

Edited by Lefa

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Strano, ecco il link diretto: [url=http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Project-636-Kilo-class-submarine-2.JPG]http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/uploads

Se seguo il link diretto la foto che ne viene fuori è vuota.

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Ho capito, faccio alla vecchia maniera:

 

Project-636-Kilo-class-submarine-2.jpg

 

636-1.jpg

 

Si vede qualcosa?

Qualche riga sull'evoluzione della classe 'Kilo':

 

Project 877

 

After the World War II, three generations of diesel-electric submarines were built for the Russian Navy to Rubin's designs.

The design of the first post-war diesel-electric submarines - Projects 613 (Whiskey class), 611 (Zulu), and 641 (Foxtrot) - was based on the experience gained during pre-war and war time, with respect to naval combat operations worldwide. Later, more powerful second-generation ocean-going Project 641B (Tango) submarines were developed based on these projects.

The task set for the designers to considerably reduce the submarine acoustic signature was successfully solved by the Rubin team when producing Project 877 submarine (Kilo class). Conspicuous improvement of the Project 877 acoustic stealth compared to the previous generations was ensured by the use of low-noise equipment, sound-absorbing hull coating, and state-of-the-art measures preventing generation and propagation of acoustical disturbance onboard.

The submarine design used a single-shaft concept of the propulsion plant, axially symmetric hull shape, and an improved length-to-diameter ratio. Not only did this enable reduction of submarine's hydrodynamic noise and interference to the sonar, but also increased full submerged speed and submerged cruising range. To enhance stealth, a brand new gas exhaust system was used, with practically no wake when snorkelling. The submarine architecture ensures her surface unsinkability even if she has a compartment and two main ballast tanks adjacent to it at the same side damage-flooded. Her streamlined hull and plane design provided high manoeuvrability when sailing both in shallow waters and at the operating depth, and allowed maintaining the periscope depth at high sea.

The power plant was made following the full electric propulsion scheme; this ensured flexibility of power generation and distribution system, and optimized snorkelling and battery charging. Reserve propulsion system gave the submarine a consistent functionality to navigate on surface and submerged as well with main shaft and propeller damaged, to cross minefields and to do mooring manoeuvres in shallow and confined waters.

Improvements to the control of weapons and engineering systems ensured reasonable combination of automated and manual operations, which made it possible to reduce the crew number, high reliability retained. The characteristics of the submarine electronic warfare were qualitatively improved while the occupied space reduced.

Project 877 submarines are capable of anti-submarine and anti-ship tasks away from harbour both in high seas and in confined waters. Their excellent capacity for upgrade allows refitting with new equipment, electronic warfare and weapons, including missiles.

 

Projects 877E and 877EKM

 

Project 877E and 877EKM submarines are export modifications of Project 877; they make one of the most successful series in the non-nuclear shipbuilding of the late 20th century. Most advanced engineering solutions of the time were implemented in the submarines of these projects.

Lead Project 877E and 877EKM submarines were delivered to the navies of Poland and India in April, 1986. Over the past years the equipment, systems, weapons and logistics have demonstrated their high reliability enabling the crew to fulfil with confidence their tasks in long patrols.

With their excellent capacities for upgrade, Project 877E and 877EKM submarines during scheduled repairs can be refitted with new equipment, electronic warfare and weapons, including missile weapons. The priority in refit is given to the combat efficiency to surpass foreign counterparts. To ensure this, the submarines are fitted with:-

state-of-the art cruise missiles to considerably increase effective weapon area;

new inertial navigation equipment with long-term data storage, which do not require correction, to feed data into the missile system when submerged;

new automated information and control system, which includes missile control subsystem, provides support for CO's tasks, outputs data for target designation, and controls missiles and torpedoes, and torpedo tubes.

The lead 877EKM submarine armed with Club-S missiles was built in 2000 at the Admiralty Shipyards in Saint Petersburg and once trials were successfully completed it was delivered to India.

 

Project 636

 

The submarine of project 636 is the further development of project 877 EKM submarine.

While designing a submarine of project 636, Rubin made use of the multi-year operation experience of Projects I641, I641K as well as 877EKM, nowadays operated by navies of a number of countries in various regions and climates worldwide.

Retaining all qualities of 877 EKM submarines, Project 636 boats surpass them in the following parameters:

Diesel generator capacity;

Full submerged speed;

Snorkelling range;

Acoustic stealth.

The combat effectiveness of Project 636 submarine is considerably increased provided she is equipped with Club-S missiles in combination with modern sensors to support the missile complex.

Reduction of underwater noise as compared to 877 EKM submarines ensures that the boat can detect and attack adversary ships from large distances with antiship cruise missiles as well as evade ASW ships on time.

More efficient air conditioning and ventilation systems provide the submarine operation in various regions and create comfortable conditions for the crew.

The Project 636 submarine entirely meets the requirements to the submarines of this class in terms of endurance, stealth, automation, combat readiness and other parameters. The submarine can perform all the tasks which modern conventional submarines are assigned with, both in littoral and blue water areas.

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Perfetto! :s20:

 

In effetti hanno caratteristiche interessanti, tra cui la maggior velocità (anche se non di molto). Anche le caratteristiche di silenziosità sono state migliorate, il che è forse preoccupante, viste le già note caratteristiche stealth.

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Fra un poco quindi fra Mare Nostrum e Mar Nero ci saranno almeno 9 636 e 1 877V (quello con modifica pump-jet, l'Alrosa), non contando l'unità Romena che viene ormai usata per scopi addestrativi e i due 877EKM algerini che verranno (forse lo sono già) rimpiazzati dalla coppia di 636 recentemente consegnati. Tanti kilo! :s07:

Quanto alle caratteristiche, tieni presente che essendo dati di pubblico dominio sono ovviamente strozzati, non meno del 20% (quando mi verranno accordati 2kt i velocità in più sul 212 in DW? :s57: :s03: )

Edited by Lefa

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Fra un poco quindi fra Mare Nostrum e Mar Nero ci saranno almeno 9 636 e 1 877V (quello con modifica pump-jet, l'Alrosa), non contando l'unità Romena che viene ormai usata per scopi addestrativi e i due 877EKM algerini che verranno (forse lo sono già) rimpiazzati dalla coppia di 636 recentemente consegnati. Tanti kilo! :s07:
Tanti Kilo....troppi forse!

 

Quanto alle caratteristiche, tieni presente che essendo dati di pubblico dominio sono ovviamente strozzati, non meno del 20% (quando mi verranno accordati 2kt i velocità in più sul 212 in DW? :s57: :s03: )
Ti quotissimo, anche io voglio un po' di più sprint ;)

 

Si vede che soffrono di meno la crisi: noi di contro manterremo solo 4 sub!

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Queste invece vengono dal catalogo delle esportazioni autorizzate dal governo russo; sapevate che se si vuole comprare qualsiasi armamento russo bisogna passare tramite una società a controllo statale, la Rosoboronexport, che funge da intermediario fra il cliente e le società produttrici di armamenti locali? vendono anche i midget Piranha!

 

navy-10636.jpg

 

navy-11877.jpg

 

[edit]

 

Non dobbiamo dimenticare il rinnovo della componente sommergibilistica egiziana, che si dice stia trattando 4 636, ancora più Kilo!

Edited by Lefa

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Devono proprio essere un progetto di successo e, magari, meno costosi di altri dalle caratteristiche simili.

 

Cominciamo ad avere un Mediterrano allargato decisamente affollato!

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Decisamente di successo, più di 50 unità costruite, quasi quanto il 're' dell'export Type 209 in tutte le sue varianti . C'è da considerare che la Russia lavora con determinate nazioni con le quali, soprattutto in passato, il mondo occidentale non intrattiene rapporti commerciali su determinate categorie di armamenti; non a caso gli utilizzatori dei Kilo sono i paesi dell' ex blocco sovietico, la cina e alcune nazioni mediorientali.

I paesi che hanno accesso a entrambe le tecnologie, russe e 'occidentali', hanno comprato entrambi i prodotti, la Marina Indiana ad esempio.

Edited by Lefa

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... 7 nuovi diesel elettrici in costruzione agli Admiralty Shipyard di S. Pietroburgo andranno ad aggiungersi all'unico Kilo attualmante di stanz ain Mar Nero,...

 

Campa cavallo... Da quelle parti sono in campagna elettorale. Vedremo dopo.

Senza contare che gli anni in cui sfornavano Foxtrot, Tango e Kilo ( per non parlare del resto ) come noccioline sono finiti da un pezzo.

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C'è da considerare la sconfitta del progetto 677, che avrebbe dovuto sostituire i 636 immagino però con altri costi.

Da quando la Marina non ha accettato il B-585 a causa dei numerosi problemi riscontrati, la costruzione degli altri due esemplari è stata sospesa nonostante gli scafi fossero in avanzato stato di allestimento; è ragionevole pensare che le risorse stanziate per la nuova classe verranno assorbite dai già testati 636 di cui due sono già stati impostati l'anno passato. Per ora la scelta sarebbe 636 o avanti con gli SSK già in linea, se il S.Petersburg rimarrà un progetto per fare esperienze la nuova generazione di SSK non arriverà subito, immagino..

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Non basta un progettista della vecchia scuola se è venuto meno tutto il resto. Non hanno più le capacità cantieristiche quantitative e qualitative di un tempo, non hanno più maestranze, tecnici ed operai, con la preparazione e le qualifiche di una volta (perchè non hanno più le stesse scuole), non hanno più strutture di studio e ricerca scientifica e tecnologica anche solo lontanamente paragonabili a quelle della "precedente gestione" anche qui sia dal punto di vista quantitativo che qualitativo.

Dopo la disintegrazione e conseguente regressione del decennio di Eltsin, su questo fronte non si sono mai più ripresi (ammesso che lo vogliano).

Il paradigma di tutto questo sono i 15 (quindici) anni che ci sono voluti per mettere in mare il primo Borey contro i 2 (due) del primo Delta I.

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On 21/2/2012 at 07:29, Totiano said:

l'articolo è di qualche giono fa, ma l'importanza non credo debba essere trascurata. 7 nuovi diesel elettrici in costruzione agli Admiralty Shipyard di S. Pietroburgo andranno ad aggiungersi all'unico Kilo attualmante di stanz ain Mar Nero, evidenzando una rinnovata attenzione per il medio oriente da parte della Russia. vi riposrto l'articolo da Defencetalk al link http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-to-deplo...-by-2017-40323/

 

Era il 2012, pio o meno il periodo della prima invasione del Donbass, quando usciva questo articolo con le mie ipotesi.

Oggi, da thedrive al link  Russia’s Only Pump-Jet Kilo Class Submarine Is Back To Attack Ukraine (thedrive.com) apprendiamo che il vecchio Alrosa è stato aggiornato e rimesso in servizio. Per dare un'idea è contemporaneo dei nostri Pelosi e Prini che ormai faticano veramente a fare il loro "mestiere. Non so se sia un buon segno perchè la Russia non ha piu nulla o se, invece, si stia prparando qualcosa di molto (troppo) piu grosso.

Ecco l'articolo, che riporta anche molti tweet e similia 

 

Quote

 

Russia’s Only Pump-Jet Kilo Class Submarine Is Back To Attack Ukraine

Kilo Class Pump Jet

A unique Russian diesel-electric submarine, the Alrosa, has returned to sea for trials ahead of rejoining the Black Sea Fleet with a new armament of cruise missiles. The one-off submarine, the oldest in the Black Sea Fleet, is likely to join combat operations against Ukraine, where Russia is now waging an intensified campaign of missile bombardment.

Russia’s state-owned TASS news agency reported today that the Alrosa, a sub-variant of the Project 877 or Kilo class diesel-electric boats, went to sea to begin post-upgrade trials. This had been disclosed by the Black Sea Fleet’s 13th Ship Repair Plant in Sevastopol, Crimea.

“The submarine has deployed [to the sea from the Sevastopol Bay],” the plant said. “For the first time over eight years, it will be tested in various modes of operation and must prove its ability to operate according to its designation.”

Photos and videos also appeared on social media today, showing the Alrosa leaving the repair facility. It is important to note, however, that it’s unclear how long these trials will take and exactly when the submarine will be declared ready for operational service. Furthermore, these are factory trials that are likely to be followed by further trials carried out by the Russian Navy.

There are few details of the extent of the upgrade, but it’s widely stated to have included the addition of 3M14 Kalibr subsonic cruise missiles, known to NATO as SS-N-30A Sagaris. These weapons have been widely used by Russia since the start of the war in Ukraine, being launched from surface combatants and submarines. Before that, the weapon was employed by the Russian Navy during Moscow’s intervention in the Syrian Civil War. The Kalibr is widely analogous to the RGM-109 Tomahawk and is thought to have a range of between 930 and 1,550 miles, carrying a high-explosive warhead weighing 990 pounds. The Kalibr missiles can also be exchanged for 3M54 anti-ship missiles, but with the absence of a meaningful Ukrainian surface threat, these are unlikely to be carried at the moment.

Last month, reports in the Russian state media described upgrades to the Alrosa that included “new combat and technical capabilities” that brought it up to a standard comparable to the “six subs that had arrived for the Black Sea Fleet in recent years.” This is a reference to the latest Project 636.3 or Improved Kilo class boats that make up the rest of the fleet’s submarine arm and which feature a Kalibr missile capability from the outset. These more modern boats were delivered between 2014 and 2017.

What’s unusual about the Alrosa, which was completed to a unique standard also known as the Project 877V, is its propulsion system. While the standard Kilo class diesel-electric boats are driven by a six- or seven-bladed propeller, the Alrosa has a pump-jet propulsor, technology that you can read about in detail here.

Suffice it to say, a pump-jet offers an array of advantages over propellers, above all the ability to reach higher speeds without noisy cavitation — this means they can transit long distances around much more stealthily. According to Russian accounts, pump-jets boats are nicknamed “black holes” due to their noise-suppressing features.

Moreover, pump-jets are also more efficient across most of a submarine’s performance envelope and have particular advantages in shallow water, as in the Black Sea. At the same time, pump-jets are heavy, costlier, and more complex than a propeller, but they have found recent use on some of the Royal Navy’s Trafalgar class and later the U.S. Navy’s Seawolf class and Virginia class nuclear attack submarines, and many other subsequent classes.

In the case of the Alrosa, it seems the pump-jet was always intended for experimental use only and it has not reappeared on later iterations of the Kilo design. Pump-jets do, however, drive the Russian Borei class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines.

The Alrosa is a significantly older submarine, built at the Krasnoye Sormovo Shipyard in what was then Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod) and originally launched in September 1989, shortly before the fall of the Soviet Union.

With the demise of the Soviet Navy, the Alrosa was left in Crimea, then still part of the newly independent Ukraine. In 1992, most of the Black Sea Fleet came under Ukrainian control, and attempts were made to establish an independent Ukrainian Navy. Russian reports state that in March of that year Ukraine attempted to seize the boat for its own use although a lack of spare parts and batteries at the time meant the submarine saw only limited operations.

Regardless, the situation quickly led to tensions with Moscow and an agreement for a joint fleet under bilateral command, although in practice this was dominated by the Russian Navy, which retained its foothold in Crimea. The Ukrainian Navy continued to exist, too, as a separate entity.

Finally, in 1997, a treaty was signed that divided assets of the former Soviet Black Sea Fleet between Ukraine and Russia, with Moscow paying Kyiv for the privilege of using Crimean naval facilities under a lease agreement. At this point, the Alrosa became the sole active submarine in the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the strategic importance of which had diminished immediately after the end of the Cold War.

With the Russian annexation of the Crimean peninsula in 2014, the Ukrainian Navy was evicted, and the Russian Black Sea Fleet came to control additional former Ukrainian Navy vessels.

In the years since the annexation, the Alrosa has languished in port in Sevastopol. While its upgrade and reactivation began well in advance of the current war in Ukraine, it seems that the decision to return the submarine to the Black Sea Fleet may very well have been driven by the demands of the conflict, and especially the need for cruise missile platforms.

Until earlier this month, it had been expected that the Alrosa would transfer to the Baltic Fleet, once it was back in service, and would then be used as a training submarine for crews destined for the newer Project 636.3 boats. Originally, this transfer was planned for 2020 but was reportedly held up by delays in the repair work.

Then, on June 17 this year, it was announced that, after all, the Alrosa would stay with the Black Sea Fleet, joining the 4th Independent Submarine Brigade in Sevastopol.

The decision to keep the Alrosa in the Black Sea Fleet may well also have been influenced by the availability of the local fleet’s other six submarines. Unconfirmed accounts suggest that, as of mid-June 2022, the fleet had only two submarines fully active and operational in the Black Sea, with another two underway in the Mediterranean. Of the remainder, one was in drydock, one had been last noted underway in May, and another was moored at Sevastopol. With that in mind, what looks like a relatively large force on paper can quickly be reduced by other operational and maintenance requirements.

Even without stepping up the tempo of its cruise missile attacks the current situation leaves the Black Sea Fleet notably short of submarines. The viability of returning the two submarines in the Mediterranean to the Black Sea is also somewhat unclear, due to the terms of the Montreux Convention.

The convention puts restrictions on non-Turkish warships transiting between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean and extends to Russian submarines. An exception can be made if the submarine is moving to or from its Black Sea homeport for repairs, which is an argument that Moscow has used in the past. This has notably been the case for combat operations by Black Sea Fleet submarines in Syria.

However, even with all six of the fleet’s Improved Kilo class boats in the Black Sea, the demands of routine maintenance, crew training, and replenishment of fuel, weapons, and supplies means that the force is under pressure.

Speaking yesterday to his British counterpart Admiral David Radakin, the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Valery Zaluzhny, provided figures for the numbers of cruise missiles launched by Russia against Ukraine. Four days ago, 53 cruise missiles were fired “from various base platforms,” three days ago 26 were fired, two days ago the number was close to 40, and in the previous 24 hours, 12 had been fired.

These missile strikes accounted, among others, for the attack on the shopping center in Kremenchuk in central Ukraine that killed and injured dozens of civilians.

The “various base platforms” include Tu-22M3 bombers launching their missiles over Belarus, as well as Tu-95MS and Tu-160 strategic bombers launching cruise missiles from over Russia. However, naval vessels, including frigates, corvettes, and submarines of the Black Sea Fleet have long played a key role in delivering these strikes.

The Kilo class is relatively compact, and each of the Project 636.3 boats reportedly carries only four Kalibr missiles. Although unconfirmed, it’s likely the updated Alrosa has a similar capacity.

The improved performance offered by the pump-jet propulsion unit is of no consequence in a conflict without any anti-submarine warfare opposition. The fact that the Alrosa had previously been earmarked for a training role suggests that any advantage conferred by the unique propulsor was likely not judged sufficient to keep it in service in a frontline role.

Furthermore, the Alrosa has in the past suffered from problems with its powerplant. In 2009, during drills in the Black Sea, the submarine reportedly had an engine malfunction and needed to be towed back to port in Crimea. Not only is the Alrosa an aging boat, but the unique pump-jet propulsion likely poses unique maintenance challenges.

There is also the recurring question of exactly how many advanced cruise missiles Russia has left in its stockpiles. Since early on in the current campaign, there have been estimates that these stocks have become severely depleted, with the effects of sanctions making it even harder to replenish them. This factor, too, is one that has to be taken into account when looking at the numbers of potential launch platforms and what they can actually offer in terms of firepower.

While the Alrosa is unlikely to be a long-term solution to providing additional firepower to the Black Sea Fleet submarine service, the chances of it being involved in the ongoing war against Ukraine are high, especially as the Kremlin embarks on what appears to be a new campaign of extensive cruise missile strikes across the country.

Contact the author: thomas@thedrive.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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l'Alrosa era una specie di sperimentale, se ricordo bene, le idee ai russi non mancano è la realizzazione che gli viene difficile.

 

il "troppo grosso" l'hanno già dichiarato, non dimenticare i Poseidon,  sono degli UAV che possono dare dei bei grattacapi. 

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