Il Mesma Anche All'india

[Totiano*]

nel settembre del 2005 l'India ha acquistato 6 battelli classe scorpene e questo molti di noi lo sapevano...

da bravo ritardatario ho scoperto solo oggi che ha integrato il contratto con DCN per avere anche il MESMA quale sistema di propulsione AIP a bordo dei propri battelli. sara mica perche il pakistan ha validato le prove del MESMA e lo installera a cominciare dall'ultimo dei tre in costruzione?

questo cmq il link
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/0.../index.php#more

[das boot]

SONO SEMPRE FELICE QUANDO I CUGINI D'OLTRALPE VENDONO UN BEL REATTORE E RELATIVA TECNOLOGIA ALLE POTENZE EMERGENTI

POI PROTESTANO CON GLI AMERICANI PERCHE' VOGLIONO ROVINARE I LORO AFFARI...

CHE MERITRICI :s06:

[Totiano*]

no, non e un reattore das!

il mesma e un "motore" indipendente dall'aria che impiega metanolo e ossigeno.

[yanlee]

esatto quindi un battello in immersione può ricaricare gli accumulatori o comunque usare questi motori termici senza dover essere a quota snorkel o in emersione.

Modificato 25 Maggio, 2006 da yanlee

[Steven]

che propulsione e'???

 

nn l'ho mai sentita se e' gia stato aperto 1 post nn l'ho visto e se nn lo e' aperto potete spiegare questo nuovo motore ai comuni mortali?

 

grazie

 

PS se c'e' gia 1 post mi avvisate in pm

[Totiano*]

cominciamo con qualche link:
questi i cantieri che lo costruiscono e lo propongono
http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/equipements/mesma.html
http://www.dcn.fr/us/medias/popup_mesma.html

un buon articolo di subnet :
http://www.subnetitalia.it/articoloaip1.htm

ed un'altro articolo sull'AIP, stavolta in inglese
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n8.../propulsion.htm

in soldoni (ma ammetto di non conoscerne bene i particolari, l'ho sempre sottovalutato in ragione dei suoi difetti..) e una turbina a vapore che muove un alternatore x produrre corrente da impiegare per la propulsione e/o per le batterie; ovviamente i cugini d'oltralpe hanno sfruttato il know how sulla propulsione nucleare che impiega proprio dei turboalternatori.
il vapore e prodotto dalla combustione di etanolo e ossigeno. la stessa pressione della combustione consente di espellere la CO2 fuoribordo (dicono) a qualsiasi profondita .

pregi: potenza maggiore ripetto agli altri sistemi AIP sul mercato
difetti: rendimento estremamente basso (significa consumi molto alti)
rumorosita maggiore per i macchinari in moto
produzione di calore
necessita di espellere gas fuoribordo (quindi rumore)

cio non di meno, essendo l'AIP dedicato ai battelli francesi chi compra dai cugini d'oltralpe deve per forza acquisire questo AIP e quindi, a partire dai pachistani, penso che si adegueranno anche le altre nazioni.

[Gianfranco G.P.]

 

pregi: potenza maggiore ripetto agli altri sistemi AIP sul mercato
difetti: rendimento estremamente basso (significa consumi molto alti)
rumorosia maggiore per i macchinari in moto
produzione di calore
necessita di espellere gas fuoribordo (quindi rumore)

cio non di meno, essendo l'AIP dedicato ai battelli francesi chi compra dai cugini d'oltralpe deve per forza acquisire questo AIP e quindi, a partire dai pachistani, penso che si adegueranno anche le altre nazioni.

In virtu dei difetti elencati da Totiano aggiungerei che per mantenere delle autonomie decenti l'ingombro e veramente elevato (basso rendimento=piu combustibile; comburente+combustibile entrambi stivati a bordo; macchinari più ingombranti) e visto che lo spazio E' QUELLO... mi viene da pensare che le autonomie in gioco siano risibili...

[Totiano*]

Domani l'India iniziera la costruzione dei suoi nuovi sommergibili AIP.
leggendo l'articolo l'interlocutore si sbilancia affermando che questa e solo la prima fase di una sostruzione di ben 18 (diciotto!!!) somergibili da costruire in india su licenza!

e c'e anche una nota Gossip: sembra che esista una storia di tangenti per l'acquisto di questi sommergibili.

A parte tutto e l'ulteriore conferma della frenetica crescita dell'india e, di conseguenza, dell'interesse che i paesi del G8 manifestano sei suoi confronti


Questo l'articolo da Defensetalk
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/na...ies12009459.php

India To Build Submarines for French, Spanish Navies
Agence France-Presse
Dec 13, 2006 - 6:16:34 AM

India is to begin assembling Franco-Spanish Scorpene attack submarines this week as part of plan to boost its naval power and military-industrial know-how.

Indian navy Vice Adm. S.K.K. Krishnan, the head of Mumbaiââ¬â¢s Mazagaon Dock naval shipyard, said production would begin Dec. 14 with a formal opening ceremony attended by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to be held at a later date.

The 2.4 billion euro deal to build an initial six diesel submarines was signed in October 2005 with Armaris, a subsidiary of France Thales group and Direction des Constructions Navales (DCN).

The agreement also includes the sale of 36 Exocet-type anti-submarine and anti-ship missiles.

"As far as the production is concerned, nothing has changed. We are technically ready. Production will be starting on Thursday," Krishnan told AFP.
"This is only phase one. We plan to build 18 more indigenous submarines," he said.

The Scorpene, jointly developed by DCN and Spain Navantia, is a 67-meter-long (220 feet) craft designed for attack and interception. Malaysia and Chile have also placed orders.

India's contract covers a 12-year period, and the first craft is scheduled to enter into service in 2012, with an additional submarine following each year.
India's navy currently has 16 submarines, but these are mainly aging Russian and German models. With the Scorpene, India is hoping to bring its fleet up to date to match challenges from rivals Pakistan and China.

The contract also includes the transfer of key technology, with just the first two submarines being built under French and Spanish supervision.

The arrangement has been presented as a win-win deal giving new technology to India and a major foothold in the country's huge defense market to the foreign firms.

"an innovative technology transfer, with the indigenization of sub-systems, equipment and components," said Amaris, project director Xavier Marchal.
"In the future there will be good deals to be made in India. This serves as a foundation for DCN's industrial relations at a moment when India's defense economy is transforming," he said.

India is the largest arms purchaser among emerging nations and said last month that it will not prune defense spending because of the growing threat from terrorism and ongoing regional tensions.

India annually spends $14 billion, or 2.34 percent of its gross domestic product, on its military. Since 2004 it has either spent or committed billions of dollars in modernization projects planned until 2010.

But the Scorpene deal has been marred by corruption allegations. The main opposition party, the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), alleged that around four percent of the contract amount " or around $100 million" was paid to Indian intermediaries, one of whom is said to be close to the ruling Congress party.

The charges came after weekly magazine Outlook published a series of articles alleging that French defense giant Thales paid the commission to Indian middlemen to clinch the deal.

Thales has denied the allegations, as have the French and Indian governments.

[Totiano*]

la costruzione procede, da defencetalk al link http://www.defencetalk.com/indian-firms-wi...ontracts-41131/

la notizia della vicita di gara da parte di subcontractor

 

Indian Firms Win First Scorpene Subcontracts

 

 

DCNS, a world leader in naval defence, signed through DCNS India a contract with SEC Industries worth Rs 310-cr (approximately €50 million) for the local manufcture of equipment for the P75 Scorpene submarines*.

 

DCNS India** signed a contract with SEC Industries for the manufacture of equipment (hull hatches, cofferdam doors, knuckle hoses, ballast vent valves, High Pressure air cylinders, weapon handling and storage system). Over the coming years, SEC will manufacture equipment under a TOT provided by DCNS India and they will be progressively delivered to our customer, Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), for integration onboard the P75 Scorpene submarines.

 

“The contract with SEC is part of the indigenization program implemented by DCNS India under the P75 Mazagon Purchased Materials (MPM) contracts. Through this will to manufacture in India, we are developing strong industrial partnerships and capabilities for the P75 and future programs. Together with our partners, we are positioning ourselves for the long term”, declared Bernard Buisson, Managing Director of DCNS India.

 

The concerned equipment are highly specific due to the physical constraints they will face onboard the submarines. As for the recent deliveries from Flash Forge, the local production will follow DCNS’ strict quality standards to ensure the submarines’ optimal performances with maximum safety over the long term.

 

DCNS, through DCNS India and its support teams in France, is providing SEC Industries with training sessions:

 

In France, over 40 SEC personnel are to be trained within DCNS facilities for over a year periods (on 2012 and 2013);

In Hyderabad, DCNS India will provide On the Job Training and technical support to assist the implementation of manufacturing processes and Quality Control procedures for a period of 5 years.

DCNS India will also provide the technical data package for the manufacturing and a 24/7 local assistance in order to allow SEC to meet quality requirement and on-time deliveries.

 

D. Vidyasagar, Managing Director of SEC Industries said “Through this contract, our company will gain in technology terms, infrastructure and trained manpower.”

 

“SEC Industries is upgrading its capabilities: set-up of a new workshop dedicated to this program, acquisition of new industrials means for sanding, welding and painting and recruitment of skilled manpower; technicians and engineers. Together with SEC we are investing in technology transfer

 

for the satisfaction of our stakeholders and to be in position to get future orders from our esteemed Customer”, Bernard Buisson concluded.

 

In June 2011, DCNS India has signed a contract with Flash Forge India Pvt. Ltd. to supply equipment under the P75 Scorpene submarines program. The first equipment under this contract were delivered to MDL earlier this year.

 

Since DCNS India will be tying up with more Indian companies in the frame of P75, further announcements are to be made in future.

[Totiano*]

Forse le cose non stanno andando cosi bene nella costruzione casalinga degli scorpene. apprendo da questo articolo di defencenerws http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140802/DEFREG03/308020016/Indian-Navy-Wants-Fast-Track-Purchase-Russian-Subs che stanno pensando di noleggiare qualche "Amur" (6, cita l'articolo) dalla Russia in attesa di consolidare il loro progetto AIP. Ecco l'articolo

 

Indian Navy Wants To Fast-Track Purchase of Russian Subs

 

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry’s delay in floating a tender for six conventional submarines appears to be helping Russia, as the Indian Navy is now asking the MoD to buy two Russian-built Amur-class subs to help restock the shrinking force.

The $12 billion global tender would cover the purchase of six conventional submarines with air independent propulsion (AIP) technology under the Indian Navy’s Project 75-I.

A high-level team from Rosoboronexport was in New Delhi two weeks ago to negotiate the sale or lease of two Amur-class subs, said a source in MoD who gave no details of the deliberations.

The Indian Navy also plans to build six conventional Scorpene submarines under license by DCNS of France at Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks. The delivery of those submarines has been delayed by more than four years. The first of the six submarines will now be inducted into the Navy by 2016 compared with the original delivery date of 2012.

“The delay in Scorpene delivery as well as the delay in [the 75-I] submarine project has led to extreme depletion of [the] submarine arm,” said retired Indian Navy Capt. Shyam Kumar Singh. “The next new submarine will be ready to join the fleet only in 2018. Therefore the earnest need to procure the submarines from Russia.”

Russia leased the nuclear submarine Chakra in 1984, the only country to lease a nuclear submarine to India.

The Indian Navy operates seven Russian-made Kilo-class and four German-made SSK submarines, the last of which joined service in the late 1990s.

In the past year, three Kilo-class submarines were unavailable due to accidents and delays by the state-run shipyard at Vizag.

Though the Navy has asked the MoD to negotiate the purchase of two Amur subs, there is a difference of opinion among service officials about whether to buy Russian or Western-built vessels.

One faction favors the Russian-made AIP submarines, finding them more safe and robust while another group, mostly younger, prefers Western submarines based on a better score in electronics, control and sensors.

“Russian submarines are cheaper to maintain as the Indian Navy has invested heavily in creating relevant infrastructure to support the boats,” a senior Navy officer said. “Besides, there is adequate training on Russian submarines.”

Another officer rebutted: “While the Russian submarines are cheaper to buy initially, their support is expensive and has become an issue with the Indian Navy. While the French and the Western submarines are easier to maintain there are issues of transfer of technology of critical systems.”

While the Navy is facing depleting submarine fleet strength, there is uncertainty over the floating of the $12 billion tender under Project 75-I, now delayed by more than four years. The MoD has not given a reason for the delay in floating the tender.

“The project will not be scrapped,” Singh said. “However, the initial specifications were drawn sometime in 2006-07. It has already been eight years since then. Even if the tender is floated now, it will take at least 10 years for the first submarine to be built at the fastest and [it will be] outdated. The chances are that the specification may be changed. This could be the reason for delay in floating the formal tender.”

The overseas defense shipyards that have shown interest in Project 75-I include DCNS, for its Scorpene with AIP system; HDW of Germany with its Type 214 with Siemens Fuel Cell AIP submarine; Russia with its Amur-class submarine; and Fincantieri of Italy with its S-1000 submarine.

The strength of the Indian Navy submarine fleet has dwindled from a total of 21 vessels in the 1980s to 14. Yet China has more than 60 boats, a point of major concern to the Indian Navy, an official said. ■

[Totiano*]

A noi la notizia è forse passata un po in sordina, ma il primo Scorpene indiano è stato varato nell'Aprile scorso. Vi linko NDTV, uno dei tanti articoli sul web: http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/first-scorpene-submarine-launched-in-big-boost-for-navy-752526

 

Scorpene Submarine, Built at Mumbai Docks, Launched Into Water

Mumbai: In a big push forward for modernization plans for the Navy, the first of six French-designed Scorpene submarines which are being manufactured in Mumbai, was launched into the water today, initiating the process for extensive trials.

The diesel-electric submarines are being built at the state-run Mazgaon docks in Mumbai; they are expected to be inducted into the Navy by 2018, about four years later than planned. The project has also over-shot the budget by nearly Rs. 5,000 crore and is expected to cost about Rs. 23,000 crore. "One (Scorpene) submarine will be delivered every nine months," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.China's increasing undersea prowess has highlighted how much India is lagging behind with a rundown fleet. India's Navy currently has 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of which are operational at any given time due to refits.

 

To replace a nearly 30-year-old fleet hit by a run of accidents, Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has ordered an accelerated tendering process to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines at an estimated cost of Rs. 50,000 crore ($8.1 billion), in addition to the Scorpenes that the French firm DCNS is assembling at the Mumbai port.

The country's first indigenously built nuclear submarine, INS Arihant - loaded with nuclear-tipped missiles and headed for sea trials this month - joins the fleet in late 2016. India leased a nuclear-propelled submarine from Russia in 2012.

The government has already turned to industrial group Larsen & Toubro Ltd, which built the hull for the first domestic nuclear submarine, to manufacture two more, according to some reports.

[Regia Marina *]

A livello tecnico gli Scorpene che caratteristiche hanno?

[danilo43*]

Me lo sono chiesto anch'io; in aggiunta a quanto già esposto da Totiano, in Internet si trova una discreta documentazione.

Modificato 26 Maggio, 2015 da danilo43

[Ramius80]

Eh già.. il KALVARI ! Ma i 212A sono molto molto meglio

[Ramius80]

http://www.difesaonline.it/mondo-militare/india-scoppia-lo-scandalo-scorpene-sulla-rete-22400-pagine-classificate-sui

[Totiano*]

Della divulgazione dei segreti francesi sugli scorpene ne avevamo già parlato qui, Ramius: https://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=45868 ma è meglio un doppione che perdere la notizia.

 

Che poi i Todaro siano meglio degli Scorpene da esportazione non c'è alcun dubbio... anche se temo tu sia un po di parte

[Ramius80]

ops..

[Totiano*]

Giusto per rimanere aggiornati, riporto questo comunicato stampa che anncuncia il successo del lencio dimissile antinave dagli scorpene indiani al link http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-welcomes-the-successful-maiden-firing-of-an-anti-ship-missile-from-the-first-indian-scorpene-class-submarine/

 

DCNS welcomes the successful maiden firing of an Anti-Ship missile from the first Indian Scorpene®-class submarine

03.03.2017 •

The first Indian Scorpene® submarine was built in Mumbai by Mazagon Dock, as part of a technology transfer agreement with DCNS.

According to the Indian Navy: “On 02 March 2017, the Indian Navy successfully conducted the maiden firing of an Anti-Ship missile from the first of the indigenously built Kalvari class submarines, during a test firing in the Arabian Sea. The missile successfully hit a surface target at extended ranges during the trial firing. This missile launch is a significant milestone, not only for the Kalvari, which is the first in a series of Scorpene class submarines being built in India, but also in enhancing the Indian Navy’s sub-surface warfare capability.

All six Kalvari class submarines being built in India will be equipped with this anti-ship missile, which has a proven record in combat. These missiles will provide the submarines the ability to neutralise surface threats at extended ranges.”

Hervé Guillou, Chairman and CEO of DCNS declares: “This milestone represents a major step in the successful Indian-French partnership. This firing validates the Scorpene® design and the integration of DCNS Combat Management System. I am proud of DCNS cooperation with Indian Navy and our partner Mazagon Dock, who have been involved in this programme while contributing to Indian sovereignty and paving way to become a true blue water Navy.”

The Kalvari is the first DCNS Scorpene® submarine to be fully built through construction technology transfer right from the first unit of the series. The Group is also providing numerous items of equipment, some of which were produced in India in the frame of the programme to localise production in India.

The Scorpene® is a conventional-propulsion submarine designed and developed by DCNS for all types of mission, such as surface vessel warfare, anti-submarine warfare, long-range strikes, special operations or intelligence gathering. With 14 submarines sold, the Scorpene® proposed by DCNS has now become an essential reference product in the area of conventional attack submarines (SSK) for Navies across the globe.

[Regia Marina *]

Sarebbe interessante un confronto tra gli Scorpene e derivati con i 212 e derivati (214 ecc)

[Totiano*]

Sarei di parte, per cui non mi esprimo. però al confronto aggiungerei anche i mezzi con sistema stirling, quindi i battelli svedesi ma, sopratutto, i giapponesi

[Regia Marina *]

Sarei di parte, per cui non mi esprimo. però al confronto aggiungerei anche i mezzi con sistema stirling, quindi i battelli svedesi ma, sopratutto, i giapponesi

 

I Giapponesi hanno degli interessantissimi SSK a mio parere.

Già con gli Harushio che ormai hanno una certa età dovevano essere degli ottimi battelli (seppur convenzionali e senza sistema AIP tranne gli ultimi come base per lo sviluppo delle classi successive), i nuovi Soryu con sistema Stirling (Kawasaki licenza svedese Kokums) dovrebbero esserlo ancora di più